February's skillweek poll - please vote!!

[Dave]

horn should be banned tbh

I agree with this. How is charging a horn prior to skillweek and using it on mining any different than experience rewards (WGS), elite diary rewards, or dragonkin lamps?

[Dr Brad]

Thanks to both of you for the feedback. We'll revisit the Allowed and Not Allowed at http://www.koaclan.co.uk/forums/viewtopi ... =95&t=4965

Brad

[Lady in Ice]

horn should be banned tbh

I agree with this. How is charging a horn prior to skillweek and using it on mining any different than experience rewards (WGS), elite diary rewards, or dragonkin lamps?

I disagree. There is a huge difference.

1. The horn ( and also sc tools) actually requires you to train a skill.
Vs. WGS, elite diary rewards or dragonkin lamps don´t require you to train a skill.. you can just get large amounts of exp within 1 min without training.
To gain the same amount of exp with the horn you need to go and mine (for example at least 4 hours ( or even more) to get 400k exp

2. Using horn ( sc tools ) is a way of training the skill. You say its faster than training without the horn? Sure it is! But also training mining at living rocks is much faster than training in mining guild. How is it more fair??
Using WGS ( other exp rewards ) isn´t a way of training the skill ( you can gain the exp without doing anything).

3. Everyone can get the horn filled ( or sc tools) before the skillweek. It´s not depending on levels.
Not everyone can do the WGS/elite diarys, right?

4. Many ppl train the skill only with the horn/sc tools. Why should I do construction or crafting without sc tools if we ever have it for the skillweek. I don´t like the thought that I need to spend more money because I´m not allowed to use sc hammer.

[Dave]

1. The horn ( and also sc tools) actually requires you to train a skill.
Vs. WGS, elite diary rewards or dragonkin lamps don´t require you to train a skill.. you can just get large amounts of exp within 1 min without training.
To gain the same amount of exp with the horn you need to go and mine (for example at least 4 hours ( or even more) to get 400k exp

2. Using horn ( sc tools ) is a way of training the skill. You say its faster than training without the horn? Sure it is! But also training mining at living rocks is much faster than training in mining guild. How is it more fair??
Using WGS ( other exp rewards ) isn´t a way of training the skill ( you can gain the exp without doing anything).

3. Everyone can get the horn filled ( or sc tools) before the skillweek. It´s not depending on levels.
Not everyone can do the WGS/elite diarys, right?

4. Many ppl train the skill only with the horn/sc tools. Why should I do construction or crafting without sc tools if we ever have it for the skillweek. I don´t like the thought that I need to spend more money because I´m not allowed to use sc hammer.

My primary comparison was towards how effigies are similar to the penance horn.

1. What really is training a skill? If I'm looking to train a skill I'm looking at achieving efficient exp. Any method that doesn't provide both a quality exp/h rate and reasonable gp/exp rate I consider "having fun" or not training the skill. With that said using effigies to train a skill IS a method of training. Perhaps not with mining, but I know that certain other skills are best trained by collecting and using effigies.

2. Thats simply re-iterating 1. See above.

3. Everyone can obtain and use effigies. Its not dependent on levels.

4. See 1. Why should I do slayer, runecrafting, fishing or agility without effigies. Also comparing the horn to sc tools is completely different. SC tools save money, the horn doesn't (except for firemaking, but that's offset by the fast/easy exp).

And when I talk about effigies, I also refer to training the skill with them. As in actively seeking out and camping certain monsters for the effigy drops for the single purpose of using them in a specific skill.

[Lady in Ice]

1 and 2 . With " training a skill" I rather meant not the generalized meaning of " training" i.e. increasing the exp but the particular activity ( i.e. hitting something with a pickaxe (mining skill) ).
Using effigies isn´t "mining" in that sense.

3. Yes, everyone can obtain effigies.. but using effigies on mining isn´t "mining" ( see above). Also you could use unlimited amount of precollected effigies and gain 1 million mining exp in 10 minutes.
Having a horn in your inventory doesn´t give you any advantage if you mine with it during 10 minutes. You get 20k exp at most. You still have to "work" and spend your time for mining.

4. Sc tools and the horn are the same regarding the exp gains. They both give double exp.
Of course you could train skills with effigies but please not during the skillweek. See 1 and 2 - precollected effigies would be the unfair advantage because you can possibly gain millions of exp during 10 minutes without actually doing the skill ( i.e. without mining any rocks). It´s not possible with the horn. In order to gain good exp you still have to work hard.
( you won´t win the skillweek with only having a horn in your bank )

We should let ppl decide themselves how they train mining ( note- training used in the sense "hitting something with a pickaxe". )

[firstknight4]

horn should be banned tbh

I agree with this. How is charging a horn prior to skillweek and using it on mining any different than experience rewards (WGS), elite diary rewards, or dragonkin lamps?

i agreed as well but really there is no way to know who is useing what and no good way to prove it either other than honor. having said that seem to me all player sould be able to use any xp method they wish as long as its legal by rs rules.

we really have no idea if we have any one useing a bot or not. its ever one own choice to play fair or cheat. we have no way to know for sure.

[B F O A]

I see your side to this Kal. Hoarding effigies could give a player an unfair advantage. But I ran some numbers here, and I have to side more with Trix and Dave.

From the wiki:

From a fully charged horn, a player can expect to get about 1.15m (575k bonus) Mining experience when mining concentrated gold at 95 mining.

Now. if a player was to be 95 mining, it would take them approximately 27 effigies to reach 1.15 million exp.

I'm 84 mining, I don't know how much less experience I would get from using a horn, but it would still take me a whopping 40 effigies to reach 1.15 million exp.

This is no easy feat, as I saw maybe a total of 7 effigies during all of slayer week, and I slayed my butt off!

Filling a horn can be done in roughly 6 hours or less, correct? So you're essentially earning the equivalent of 27-40 effigies in just 6 hours.

[Lady in Ice]

I´m not sure what you´re talking about, BFOA, about an unfair advantage when using horn?

There is always someone who has an advantage. Someone who has higher level and can mine/fish/do whatever faster. Someone who doesn´t work and has plenty of time to play RS, someone who uses faster methods for training. It has always been that way. You can never reach the ultimate fairness.
When we started the skillweeks 2 years ago then some people proposed that we could mathematicly calculate the exp advantage a lvl 99 has over a lvl 60 for example and add this "unfair" exp to the result of the lvl 60.. and so on..
I´m glad it´s not working because Brad should quit his job in order to do the event :lol:

Should we ban everything that gives bonus exp ( i.e. sc tools ( also double exp), fire gloves/ring, lumberjack oufit, summoning familiars? Especially sc tools because they are no different of ba horn regarding exp, right?

This is very simple imo : if you want to do a good result in a skillweek you also should use fast methods of mining. You will not do great when you mine copper. So.. if you really want to be in top 10, go and play ba for those 6 hours.

Edit : I just remembered- during last skillweek there was 1 person who even recommended banning Hid :lol:

[TrixStar]

Ya if you want to do great at mining go do something that has nothing to do with mining!

[Lady in Ice]

Ya if you want to do great at mining go do something that has nothing to do with mining!

actually everything that helps with mining has nothing to do with mining ( juju potion, summoning familiar, coal bag from dungeoneering )

[TrixStar]

Hence the only thing being allowed is a pick axe

[Dr Brad]

A lively discussion, indeed!

In my mind, the primary goal in holding skillweek is providing clannies with a community experience where they can strengthen friendships and share in conversation. It's also fun, as a community, to see ppl lvl frequently. Especially, lower lvl clannies. A plethora of "grats" during skillweek. Nice.

We try to hold a fair competition but realize that much of this is dependent on individuals' personal honor. Yes, we 've found a few botters and individuals who started training the skill prior to start time (and dealt with them the best we could), but if 1st, 2nd and 3rd place rewards were the primary goal in skillweek, then skillweek might not happen. Why? Because I don't think we adequately regulate skillweek to assure ppl that the competition had adequate oversight.

Think back to one of the last inter-clan olympics KoAers attended. As a whole, we were psyched. Energy, commitment and confidence were high....and then....the other clans started throwing millions of precollected Soul Wars zeal points at skills. Those skills were fully trained within a couple of hours by the other clans. KoA hadn't done this. What effect did that have on the clan? Demoralization. The air was let out of the balloon. The same would occur in clan skillweek if ppl started getting crazily huge xp early on with immediate xp rewards. Ppl would quit the skillweek and do something else. We might be successful in claiming a skillweek winner, but IMO the clan would lose in the long run.

In sum, we should do everything we can to maintain skillweek as a fun, well-attended community event. The individual competitive aspects of skillweek should be acknowledged, but they should be secondary to fostering clan community.

[kingedward20]

can i be added to the tracker

Or better yet i'll just re up to member status.

thks

[Dr Brad]

Or better yet i'll just re up to member status.

Done

[pi_stoff]

A lively discussion, indeed!

In my mind, the primary goal in holding skillweek is providing clannies with a community experience where they can strengthen friendships and share in conversation. It's also fun, as a community, to see ppl lvl frequently. Especially, lower lvl clannies. A plethora of "grats" during skillweek. Nice.

We try to hold a fair competition but realize that much of this is dependent on individuals' personal honor. Yes, we 've found a few botters and individuals who started training the skill prior to start time (and dealt with them the best we could), but if 1st, 2nd and 3rd place rewards were the primary goal in skillweek, then skillweek might not happen. Why? Because I don't think we adequately regulate skillweek to assure ppl that the competition had adequate oversight.

Think back to one of the last inter-clan olympics KoAers attended. As a whole, we were psyched. Energy, commitment and confidence were high....and then....the other clans started throwing millions of precollected Soul Wars zeal points at skills. Those skills were fully trained within a couple of hours by the other clans. KoA hadn't done this. What effect did that have on the clan? Demoralization. The air was let out of the balloon. The same would occur in clan skillweek if ppl started getting crazily huge xp early on with immediate xp rewards. Ppl would quit the skillweek and do something else. We might be successful in claiming a skillweek winner, but IMO the clan would lose in the long run.

In sum, we should do everything we can to maintain skillweek as a fun, well-attended community event. The individual competitive aspects of skillweek should be acknowledged, but they should be secondary to fostering clan community.

Well said Dr

The reason I do skill week is to help me train a skill, thats why I always vote for a skill I dislike, I compete to help others by giving them a target to go for or even motivation to keep ahead of me not just to give me a target and keep ahead of others.

People should be allowed to train the way they normally train a skill not have banned methods just for the skill week, if people use quest / mini games rewards to train for skill week its their decision to use it on that skill and not use it on a skill they would normally use it on, if winning is more important to them than the community spirit, taking part and having fun then let them have their glory and high ranking.

I use my effigies for runecrafting, sc tools for construction and smithing, I use my effigies as I get them and dont collect for a skill week, I collect sc tools and would expect to use them if we had a smith or construction skill week.

Its a game you all win because you all get xp, the only rule should be play fair and rely on the individual not doing what they believe to be cheating, if you win by cheating its not much of an achievement.