KoA and botting

[blarny3]

I know nothing about botting as I am technically challenged. But I do know that admin do investigate everything thoroughly...and I really feel for the 'accused'. It is the worse thing being accused. And not in Koa but in general I have also been accused of botting (ironic as I do not even know what it is lol), simply as I do not talk or fall asleep.....heck I have fallen asleep at bandos before now lol.

Please think about what you are writing...and at the end of the day...this is just a game and I am confident that we are mature enough to move on from this x

[Gridenough]

The incident(s) happened after you logged out for the night Grumpy. I logged in at various times during the nights to launch my ships and get in an hour or two of mining. I totaled 6 to 7 hours of mining each day of the competition in 1 and 2 hour bouts. Most of the time everything was fine. But there were a couple of incidents that were definitely off. One has not (and will not) be reported because I did not have the presence of mind to take a screenie or a recording. Without any proof there is no point in reporting.

I agree with Lacey that there was someone or a pair of players booted for cheating shortly after I joined the clan. I also think that her point was not that we rehash the old incident, but that the clan precedent has previously been strict enforcement. There was quite a kerfuffle over it. I also remember most clearly when the admins chose to eject Beef over an incident that wasn't even online, but in rl --several of us argued at the time that the admins should not go beyond what happens in the game, and certainly not interfere in personal rl disputes. The admins didn't see it that way and ejected Beef from KOA, even though there were no improprieties in the game.

Perhaps the admins should decide more clearly what their role is in enforcing clan behavior. If there are rules to enforce, they should be enforced evenly. To tolerate cheating in one but not others hurts us all.

I find all the references to "adult" in this discussion somewhat amusing. There is nothing particularly adult in the topic. We learned in kindergarten that cheating was wrong and that cheaters suffer consequences.

[Dr Brad]

I also remember most clearly when the admins chose to eject Beef over an incident that wasn't even online, but in rl --several of us argued at the time that the admins should not go beyond what happens in the game, and certainly not interfere in personal rl disputes. The admins didn't see it that way and ejected Beef from KOA, even though there were no improprieties in the game.

This is your perception with limited information. You are not correct.

[magerpainz]

This is so disappointing. From the video evidence it is *extremely* obvious that an auto-clicker is being used. Such a shame to see this from a player that I have liked and respected in the past.

This post pretty much sums it up for me.
I was called to witness this in game with 2 other staff members just before Sig started his video. (It was me that Sig was pming the next night when he sent his wrong chat to cc accidentally.)
I could fill a page debating with facts why I believed what I was seeing at the Priff mining spot, but I'm not here to impose my thoughts onto anyone or contribute to a witch-hunt.
The whole episode, from that point, and the events that followed up to, and including the present, have left such a bad taste in my mouth, that I don't even feel like discussing it. #2disgusted2discuss

What I will discuss is this: Anyone who knows me well, knows that I have killed thousands of bots throughout runescape in the past.
Many of these, were the green dragon bots in the wild. Maybe anti-botting methods have changed since then but at that time, I would pick on certain bots by adding them to my friend's list, report them, kill them, and 5-7 minutes later watch the green dot come bouncing back across the wild. I did this with many bots on my list, hopping back and forth between the worlds that they occupied.
The next time I logged in, I would look to see what world they were on and hop to that world repeating what I had done the day before.
The same bots would do this 24/7 for weeks, maybe even months after being reported multiple times. These bots did nothing else in game but kill and bank dragon bones and hides. It was totally obvious to anyone investigating that they were bots.
Like I said, maybe the reporting method has changed. I hope so, if this is what we are now depending on.....

[SnowAngel]

This is so disappointing. From the video evidence it is *extremely* obvious that an autoclicker is being used. Such a shame to see this from a player that I have liked and respected in the past.

I feel the same way, Milly.

To be fair, accusing someone of botting in Runescape is a quite serious accusation. The severity of which (although childishly so) is comparable to that of murder in the real world. As such, I feel the burden of proof should be equally as significant.

Murderers can be convicted based on circumstantial evidence...

A number of explanations could cause a player to lose control of their character and result in similar movements to the video provided. Now, do I think Selene was using an autoclicker? Absolutely but without seeing the precise mouse movements and timing between inputs I can not say that she is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

The movements were exactly 25 seconds apart. What would the explanation to this be? Can someone fall asleep and do this? Can someone clicking while awake but watching TV do this? Well, I suppose anything is possible but highly unlikely.

The whole Admin team spent 3+ days investigating this issue after they were first made aware.
The discussion thread for this in the Admin area spans 6 pages of posts.
They also had a meeting on Mumble to discuss it in more detail.

Everything was looked into and discussed in depth, before any decision was made.

If anything, the tone of the discussion was to scrutinise things in *more* depth since this involved a member of staff, rather than less as some people have implied.

I think they would have done the same with an accusation like this made against any clan member. I do think that if it was clear to them that it was not a case of using an auto-clicker, they would have had that decision much sooner. They wanted definitive proof which is impossible to get unless there is a confession or Jagex steps in.

When I'm mining in the Citadel I click without looking at the screen too.

Mining is about the only thing you can do that for - and it's easy.

Does it look like an autoclicker - yes, definitely.
Could it have been zombie-clicking, more than half asleep, and probably doing something else to relieve the monotony - yes, also very possible.

I understand clicking and not watching the screen. I used to do this alching all the time. However, I still do not understand how anyone, even someone fully awake staring at the screen could (or would) time their movements to move away from the mining stone and move one pace exactly every 25 seconds until hitting a wall. What people do not know who only watched the first part of the vid and/or did not read the description under it by clicking "Show more" is that the character stood there for an hour and 20 minutes not moving. The times for each movement are there, too. How is this possible if someone is at a keyboard half/sleeping or awake? Again, yes this is circumstantial and yes we can say she was moving her mouse for that entire time but I highly doubt it.

Bear in mind also that this was 90 minutes out of the entire week - and the rest of the time she was chatting in cc constantly. Why bother putting all that effort in if you can / are willing to bot?

This is not true. She does talk a lot but before the night of the vid, a member mining with her observed her moving away from the stone in what he thought to be 15-20 seconds at a time, then hit the wall and stand there for close to 2 hours. In this time, he talked to her in public and pms and she did not respond. He told an admin who went and observed this for approximately 15 minutes before having to leave. Again, I ask... how do you stay logged in for that long? If I stop my activity in game, I'm sent to lobby in about 5 minutes.

... and add into the mix that Selene (apart from the fact that she stayed up 30+ hours straight, which is pretty stupid), is a smart cookie.

Yes, she is very smart and I always respected her for that but I also know that she is very competitive and would not stand there doing nothing during a competition that she was trying to win.

I wasn't going to post anything here but felt that I needed to because I disagreed on so many points. This is not to cause more drama but to show all sides of this. We are an adult clan and I like that we are allowed to voice our opinions on forums.

When I was first informed about this matter, I was shocked and in disbelief and to be honest I was angry that anyone would do something like this just to win a competition. I had to see it to believe it.

Selene is smart and has a wealth of knowledge about this game that she willingly shares in the cc all the time. I truly respect her for those qualities. Do I believe she used an auto-clicker? yes, I do. Even smart people are capable of doing stupid things. Haven't we all? I would have liked to have seen her step out of the competition and admit to admins what she had done. If that had happened, I think this would have been handled quietly and maybe Sig wouldn't have quit or at the least, might not have felt he had to send those pms. Who knows..

I understand that admins won't do anything, even with all the circumstantial evidence. They want definitive proof and that isn't possible. I respect the fact that have come to this conclusion and are going to change the KoA rule so we can report clan members we feel are botting. They made their decision and it's final so .... Let's put this behind us and move on.

[Obitus Dator]

I understand that admins won't do anything, even with all the circumstantial evidence. They want definitive proof and that isn't possible. I respect the fact that have come to this conclusion and are going to change the KoA rule so we can report clan members we feel are botting. They made their decision and it's final so .... Let's put this behind us and move on.

While we might disagree on how likely it is/isn't that anything happened, I fully agree with this.

Thanks for at least taking the trouble to read what I wrote - appreciated

[Lady in Ice]

Yes, very disappointed too.
And even the worse thing is we´re talking here not about any player but about a staff member.. and the behaviour during the clan competition.


Are you guys sure there is no way to contact Jagex on the matter? There is clan leader forums and maybe other options to contact them to find out the truth? I know Jagex has once looked into the case of a staff member scamming a player.

If Selene didn´t use any programs as she said then it´s in her own interest to clear this up and save her reputation.
Honestly, If I was her and played fair I would hate it if anyone thought and said about me this kind of stuff.

Right now.. this all just stinks.
Many people believe she used an autoclicker to try to win the clan competition.
If she did.. then we have in staff not only a cheater and autoclicker but also a liar.

I hope its not the case and there is an explanation.

This is why I think admins should try to contact Jagex to try to find out the truth. Of course, if Selene wants it.

[Fox]

Did Selene get booted from the clan? If not I'd love to hear her opinion on the matter at hand.

[Lady in Ice]

I'd love to hear her opinion on the matter at hand.

Yes, please, Selene

[graber10]

I'd also be interested to hear a better explanation from Selene. She tried explaining herself to me once before and it didn't quite match up with what was witnessed, and then she deleted me from her friends list

[graber10]

... but, if you watch all of the video, instead of just the first bit like I suspect most people did - there's a long section where she is facing an empty space - and *not walking on to it*.
What happened there? Did the autoclicker just decide to stop working for a while? take a bit of a break? really? Or shall we just ignore that bit of the video as it doesn't fit?

To help clear this up, from what I observed was an auto clicker making 1 pace south every 25sec. This was because it was started with having a click placed on the rock that was 1 pace south. This is why once the auto clicker made the wrong click on a boss pet, it moved away from the stone causing it to pace southwards. It wasn't moving south due to the direction the character was facing, just due to the placement of the rock from the initial point the clicker was started. Therefore, even though she was facing west, the clicker was still clicking south in a blank area it could not move to. Test it sometime, have your character face west while you're standing up against blank space to your south and start clicking 1 space south. Your character will not change their standing position with clicks that close in proximity but it is still enough to keep your account logged in.

[Lady in Ice]

Thank you Graber.



Please, Selene!

Several people have asked you to explain what happened. It has been 5 days now from the first post.

There are some serious accusations against you.

Please post if you have anything to say. If you have any explanation why your character was moving like it did.

We deserve it. Everyone who played fair at the competition deserves it.

[YGE]

I understand everyone is saying "It's a game, it's a game, there's a person behind that screen..." but it's unfair to the people like us who are also behind the screen too if we have someone cheating in something that's only supposed to be a bit of fun. No matter what rank someone is, if there is proof of a cheater, why are we still seeing them around. If people are friends with others, then I'm sure they can speak in other places other than the CC. If cheaters are going to remain somewhere where I'm hanging around, I don't want to hang around for much longer.

I feel the video is clearly enough evidence. I'm sorry, but if not realising after 1 hour and 20 minutes that you keep misclicking on the pet, then I don't know.

To join this clan and see this when it's supposed to be a 'drama free' clan... it's not seeming that way.

[Deep_Pain]

I don't see the decision as being dramatic.

Someone brought up a fairly old decision somewhere in this post, a decision that had no relevance to this one at all, in all but one circumstance.

In the other decision that was made , there was a group of admin that took a vote on the facts they had in front of them, in that case it was a whole heap of evidence - tons of it, a lot of members had evidence, but not all the evidence - a lot of members made their decision on what the admins should have done on the little bits they knew. Then followed a lot of drama, based on incomplete knowledge.

I'm not saying that there is heaps of evidence you don't know about (I have no idea) or that the cases are related in any way, other than - the admins make the decision as a group, the admins deliberate and discuss those decisions at length, the admins follow the best course of action they feel they can, they don't make decisions to intentionally annoy people or try and cause drama and I certainly know from decisions in the past they work from facts and not preference for individuals. Yet still every so often there will be a decision made that people will disagree with, it will always happen, whatever decision is made. The decision is itself not dramatic.

Drama comes from how people respond to that decision.

If you don't like the decision say so, if you feel the admins should be able to make a decision in these cases, say so.
If you have constructive advise on what the admins could do better in these situations then do so.

That's all good, So what is this drama thing?

Calling someone out to explain themselves so you can decide if they are guilty or not on a forum post = drama
rage quitting = drama
mass pming then rage quitting = 5 star drama
posting about the drama (including myself in this post) = drama
Threatening to quit = drama

Posting extra info on here to get everyone to see that there was an injustice or perceived injustice is unnecessary, unfair and above all drama. If you feel there is evidence pertinent to any case, especially if that may involve punishment of a clan member - pm it to the admin team.

A decision has been made, disagree with the decision, disagree with the admin, disagree with the system.
I don't know if this term is widely used the world over, but what is happening here is what is colloquially known as a Kangaroo court.

This is certainly not aimed at you YGE - just you were the last to post about drama, and I've been trying to stop myself for posting for days.

The reason I've been stopping myself from posting is because I'm a member, I cant even see a time in the next x years I would apply for staff again due to my rl situation, and I sometimes feel a little uncomfortable posting strong opinion, as I don't want to make things more difficult. But "drama free" is a huge part of this clan, and whether this decision is right or wrong, or how strongly you feel about it - a quick scroll on this page alone shows probably 20 years+ combined time in KoA, with posts from staff, ex staff, members of extremely long standing and high respect in the clan, seeming to throw that idea out of the window, as soon as the admins make a decision they don't agree with.

drama free means drama free, decisions may happen that you don't agree with, but that doesn't mean that you throw out what this clan stands for in how you react to that issue.

my turn at being dramatic = over

[YGE]

Fair enough with the points made. I don't want to look an arse either, but you have to see it from someone who has just joined and comes across this on the forums. If you were new to the clan and started seeing things about botting, you wouldn't find it that nice. Trying to settle in and finding out that someone has botted in the community you are trying to get to know isn't good, especially when they're remaining in the clan. I want somewhere fun to be and have none of this. I love getting involved with competitions, it's also a big part of what I love doing in Runescape and when you join within a week to see someone has cheated just to win, it's really not nice. It's off putting.