KoA and botting

[Milly]

This is so disappointing. From the video evidence it is *extremely* obvious that an autoclicker is being used. Such a shame to see this from a player that I have liked and respected in the past.

[shawnmc2]

This isnt going to just get brushed off by admin, were not going to get over it in a few days. This is a major issue that needs to be RE-assessed by admin.

[syfyqueen]

This is a sad, sad situation. I quit trying to compete because certain people have taken what's supposed to be fun & friendly skill week to the extremes of xp gain. Its not fun when we feel like we don't have a chance in hell to win. Something needs to change...

[mysticmoggy]

well i suppose the idea of a competition is to get as much as you can, but i understand what your saying - but it woulodnt be a competition if we put a cap on it really so its a bit confusing.

[Touristguide]

I believe that the admins had a very centered and vigorous debate on this serious issue. I have played and competed against both Signature and Selene, and found them both to be highly competitive and I feel they both always played fair. My only experience with bots are the ones I would see wearing similar gear setups with closely strange names hogging monster resources. I have seen Selene in the past on more than one occasion display acts of gameship putting other players ahead of herself. Even during a skilling competition totally outside gaining any xp toward the event.

Knowing Selene and her player reputation if she was cheating in any form I beleive that she would admit to it. Also look at all that she has accomplished, and why would any player with that amount of time and effort jeapordize their account?

Knowing Signature he has a duty to feel that he can report any possible rule violations to the individual, and the admins, and be taken with the upmost sincerity. He too has helped other players which has made the clan stronger and each player better, hell they both have for that matter.

It is very unfortunate that as a clan we are in the midst of all this. No one wants to be punished without a clear beyond a reasonable doubt that they had broken a rule within the clan and with Jagex. I believe that we should all take a step back and look at why we play any game and how we interact with each other on a daily basis. I too have made mistakes in the past interacting with clan members and therefore will not "throw rocks in a glass house" to prove a point. We all make mistakes regardless of which side you feel aligned to. Question is how do we as a clan move forward in the future.

Touristguide

[Kiwi]

I agree with you TG, we definitely should not take extreme actions against a clan member if the evidence presented is beyond a reasonable doubt. In cases of macro/botting, Jagex should bear the burden of proof. Punishments in the forum of temporary or permanent account sanctions delivered by Jagex can be the only reliable form of evidence for clan dismissal. That being said, if someone comes forth with accusations of maco/botting during a friendly clan competition with reasonable evidence, that accused clan member should respectfully resign from the competition so as to not undermine the trust of fellow clan members.

[xNightshade]

It is what it is. If Selene botted then she shall be judged by Jagex. I've seen the vid. Tbh I don't care either way. She's still my friend.

[syfyqueen]

I concur with both Touristguide & Slayer Kiwi. Hopefully we can overcome this & get back to the happy, friendly clan we are used to being.

[ImSurferRosa]

Are you serious that there isn't enough evidence?? C'mon now, a VIDEO as proof as well as other clan members witnessing it?! I don't understand how much more evidence you possibly could need?

I'm truly disappointed in this decision. Imo, it clearly points to favourtism among admin.

[Katy]

I respectfully request, not as admin or anything other than as a human being with a little bit of empathy and compassion that you consider carefully the effects of your posts and words on another human being. Whether you believe Selene to be guilty or not is immaterial at the moment, this is turning into a lynch mob...Selene is not just a rs character...there is a real human being at the other end...and non of us know what is going on in another persons life and the devastating affects that all this is having. Please look at all the goodness and help that this person has given you. Even if you believe she did what she was accused of...does a few extra xp gained in an online game warrant what effectively is turning into cyber bullying of an individual. I beg you to consider what you have or maybe what you will post.

We are all just human.

This is a post from me...not from admin.

[xNightshade]

I respectfully request, not as admin or anything other than as a human being with a little bit of empathy and compassion that you consider carefully the effects of your posts and words on another human being. Whether you believe Selene to be guilty or not is immaterial at the moment, this is turning into a lynch mob...Selene is not just a rs character...there is a real human being at the other end...and non of us know what is going on in another persons life and the devastating affects that all this is having. Please look at all the goodness and help that this person has given you. Even if you believe she did what she was accused of...does a few extra xp gained in an online game warrant what effectively is turning into cyber bullying of an individual. I beg you to consider what you have or maybe what you will post.

We are all just human.

This is a post from me...not from admin.

Finally.

[Kiwi]

Are you serious that there isn't enough evidence?? C'mon now, a VIDEO as proof as well as other clan members witnessing it?! I don't understand how much more evidence you possibly could need?

I'm truly disappointed in this decision. Imo, it clearly points to favourtism among admin.

To be fair, accusing someone of botting in Runescape is a quite serious accusation. The severity of which (although childishly so) is comparable to that of murder in the real world. As such, I feel the burden of proof should be equally as significant. A number of explanations could cause a player to lose control of their character and result in similar movements to the video provided. Now, do I think Selene was using an autoclicker? Absolutely but without seeing the precise mouse movements and timing between inputs I can not say that she is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Only Jagex has the capacity to investigate those pieces of evidence.

[Obitus Dator]

There have been some accusations of the Admin team either a) not doing their job or b) covering up for a member of staff in the recent #botgate drama.

So I just thought that I'd put in my opinion as an unbiased observer.
Unbiased, because I'm *not* part of the Admin team and had absolutely nothing to do with the investigation/decision - but I *do* have full access to all of the information (if you want to know how/why see note 1).

The facts:
The whole Admin team spent 3+ days investigating this issue after they were first made aware.
The discussion thread for this in the Admin area spans 6 pages of posts.
They also had a meeting on Mumble to discuss it in more detail.

Everything was looked into and discussed in depth, before any decision was made.

If anything, the tone of the discussion was to scrutinise things in *more* depth since this involved a member of staff, rather than less as some people have implied.

It's also worth noting that *more than one person* was accused of botting.
The other accusation was looked into in just as much detail - and also found to be 'unproven'.

That one hasn't been publicised - it was brought to the attention of the Admins, investigated, and the decision was accepted, all without any public drama.
Which is what should have happened with this one too.

Those are the facts.


Now my opinion, which you can take or leave:

The video posted by Sig doesn't 'prove' anything. I've seen bots in RS that can't possibly be anything else - their actions really aren't human. This isn't one of those cases.

In the video what you actually see is someone/something clicking monotonously, without paying any attention at all to what is happening.

When I'm mining in the Citadel I click without looking at the screen too.
Mining is about the only thing you can do that for - and it's easy.

I watch TV, I read documents/emails for work, I read to my kids, I can even multi-log and play both accounts at once - and I can (and have) completely capped at the Citadel *without looking at the screen once*.

Because I don't need to. Rocks don't move.

At that time Selene had been playing 30+ hours straight - so it's even less likely she'd be paying attention.

Does it look like an autoclicker - yes, definitely.
Could it have been zombie-clicking, more than half asleep, and probably doing something else to relieve the monotony - yes, also very possible.

From just the video evidence I'd be 50/50.

... but, if you watch all of the video, instead of just the first bit like I suspect most people did - there's a long section where she is facing an empty space - and *not walking on to it*.
What happened there? Did the autoclicker just decide to stop working for a while? take a bit of a break? really? Or shall we just ignore that bit of the video as it doesn't fit?

... and add into the mix that Selene (apart from the fact that she stayed up 30+ hours straight, which is pretty stupid), is a smart cookie. How stupid would she have to be to bot right in the middle of a large group of clannies? Why didn't she turn cc off, jump to a random world and bot where no-one would see her or even know she was online?

Bear in mind also that this was 90 minutes out of the entire week - and the rest of the time she was chatting in cc constantly. Why bother putting all that effort in if you can / are willing to bot?

Taking all of that into account too, I'm pretty sure that she wasn't botting and that's good enough for me - and let's face it, without turning on your webcam we can never be 100% that anyone isn't botting or account sharing.

I'm rabidly competitive and if I thought *anyone* was cheating I'd be first to insist they got kicked - but this is well into the grey area, which has to mean not guilty.

Personally, I actually think the evidence against the other person was stronger - but again, definitely not enough to say for certain either way.

tl;dr

The Admin team did a good job and the right decisions were made.

Nothing to see - get back to xp'ing.


Note 1: The forums are on my server, and I provide technical support for it - so I have access to everything. While I try to keep out of the Admin only threads (since I'm not one) I do read them sometimes, just because they appear in my New Posts list and my autoclicker opens them. I really should reprogram it one day

[Touristguide]

Selene is my friend as well, always has been, always will be. That goes for everyone in this clan, old, new, alumni, etc....

[xNightshade]

Lock this thread please, I think what Obi has put should now be the be all and end all of the matter.

No point keeping it alive for more flaming.